Lisoosh: How I was insulting Bad Vibel by telling him that his attacks on Zionism are not constructive to a cross cultural dialogue, after reading statement after statement from him where he states that he would prefer if Israel wasn't a Jewish state? And frankly, can't Vibel speak for his/herself? I understand you are passionate about these issues, but calling me a moron on Vibel's behalf was your choice, not mine. "France and Germany are poor examples as they citizenship is granted by birth, not race or religion" "I am more than capable of a rational argument" Then do your research before you start piping off and calling me a moron. Both France and Germany have citizenship laws that give preference to ethnic French and Germans at birth. Not all people born in those countries are automatically citizens. Germany has its own Law of Return, as well. And with the history of conflict in Europe over the last century, and the debates happening in these societies right now regarding immigration and putting laws in place to restrict it , how could you possibly make a case that these countries - or many other countries in Europe - are not interested in maintaning an ethnic identity. And arabs born in Israel are Israeli citizens, as well. "one person one vote irrespective of race) you are going to have to work pretty hard." Not really. As Lisa has said on this blog, Arabs in Israel are enfranchised citizens who can vote, etc. As far as the rest of your arguments about the "right", it would help if you gave examples, rather than construct straw men and knock them down. "but it does not change the fundemental problem and arguing otherwise is intellectually dishonest in the extreme " More intellectually dishonest than calling me a moron and constructing straw man arguments and knocking them down? And a problem for whom? For anti-Zionists like yourself, maybe, but for the majority of Jews and Israelis, the idea of a vibrant society that acts as a place of refuge - an affimative action program, if you will - after thousands of years of persecution is not problematic. In Israel itself, and on this blog, Jewish Israelis (like Lisa) are fully aware of the Arabs living amongst them, and are doing there best to keep Israel a sane, rational, fair society by debate, etc. Ironically, you are proving my point, which is that there IS no point in discussing the situation with people who refuse to see the Zionist POV and acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. I'll let you have the last word, on this. Have a good one.